In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Frank Furedi discuss whether populism is a legitimate force or a threat to democracy, the impact of political polarization on mainstream parties’ claim to represent ordinary citizens—and to what extent Viktor Orbán undermined democracy in Hungary.
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Orbán → discuss → Hungary
This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity.
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transcript → condense → clarity
We probably have different views about populism, but I think it is important for some people to make a real, systematic defense of it.
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people → have → it
I have had many people on this podcast who worry very much about populism, so I am looking forward to hearing from somebody who thinks it can be a salutary movement in different ways.
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it → have → ways
Perhaps before we get to what you think is salutary about populism, a prior question: Why do you think populism is needed in this political moment?
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populism → get → moment
We are living at a moment when there seems to be a very selective approach toward both democracy and freedom.
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We → live → democracy
A lot of people seem to think that if a vote goes against them, then somehow that is the flaw of democracy.
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that → seem → democracy
Majoritarian democracy in particular is seen as some kind of evil.
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democracy → see → evil
I had this experience in Amsterdam, where I had a debate at the Balie, a liberal debating forum.
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I → have → Balie
The issue at stake was democracy and populism, and this was before I wrote the book.
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I → write → book
I was arguing for the importance of democracy.
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I → argue → democracy
I said that it is a foundational value, and that it is not something we can selectively adopt or reject.
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we → say → ?
Then this guy put up his hand and said, Professor Furedi, are you saying that democracy is good in and of itself, and you would even respect democracy if it went against your views?
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it → put → views
I said, yeah.
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I → say → ?
I would rather lose an election democratically than win an election undemocratically.
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I → lose → election
When I said that, there was a pause in the audience, and a lot of people shook their heads.
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lot → say → heads
I realized that what I had said was controversial, which I did not think it was.
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it → realize → what
So I went away and started thinking about why an educated audience had this very conditional approach toward the exercise of democracy.
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audience → go → democracy
Then I went to bookshops and noticed that all these books were being published warning about the dangers of democracy.
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books → go → democracy
I agree with you that there is a willingness to deprioritize democracy when you disagree with what the majority of your fellow citizens think.
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majority → agree → citizens
I have made this point repeatedly: obviously, it is part of democracy that you sometimes think the majority of your fellow citizens are wrong.
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majority → make → citizens
It would be very strange and schizophrenic to always have to agree with your compatriots whenever they come to a different view from you.
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they → have → you
But if you think that a majority of the people, persistently and over a long period, is systematically wrong about the most important things, that a majority is willing at the drop of a hat to be sexist and racist and retrograde about everything, it starts to undermine your commitment to democracy.
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it → think → democracy
Why agree to be ruled by a majority if you think that a majority will, in many or perhaps most situations, be on the side of evil things?
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majority → agree → things
I do think there is this tension that you are talking about, and it is something I worry about.
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I → think → that
Tell me a little more about why you think that is such a central feature of our political situation today, and how it requires us to embrace a very different mode of politics.
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it → tell → politics
There are several reasons, but probably the most important one, which has emerged in the last twenty years, is the growing trend toward political polarization, where people only talk to people like themselves.
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people → be → themselves
Instead of regarding people on the other side as fellow citizens, or maybe as political opponents, they regard them as enemies.
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they → regard → enemies
When you have this polarized environment, you almost end up with a sense of fantasy about your opponents.
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you → have → opponents
This is very much the case with populism, which is regarded as really fascist adjacent, just a prelude to people putting on their brown shirts and a horrible threat to society.
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people → regard → society
That then becomes a legitimation for your hatred toward democratic decision making.
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That → become → making
I think the most interesting example here is radical environmentalists, who argue that we have not got time to convince people, that we have not got time to demonstrate that we are right.
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we → think → time
All we need is about ten percent of society to agree with us, and that is enough.
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that → need → us
You do not care about what the majority thinks.
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majority → care → what
When you think like that, it becomes the prelude to something more dangerous, where you see people in a way that does not correspond to reality.
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that → think → reality
One of the things I always found very interesting was that the Hungarian government of Orbán was always seen as anti-democratic, quasi-fascist, far right, and everything else.
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government → find → Orbán
Time and time again, if you lived in Europe, he was represented as a big threat to democracy.
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he → live → democracy
This forgets the fact that in the last four years, for example, the opposition won elections in Budapest.
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opposition → forget → Budapest
The mayor of Budapest became his opponent.
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mayor → become → Budapest
When Orbán lost the election, he announced his defeat within an hour and graciously handed over power to his political opponents.
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he → lose → opponents
…and 281 more, not listed.
The Aporia
